Munish Gandhi, Productiv COO on AI for SaaS Cost Cuts

Michael Koenig: Hello and welcome to Between Two COOs, where phenomenal chief operating officers come to share their knowledge, advice, and at the very end, a crazy story. I'm your host, Michael Koenig, and our guest today is Munish Gandhi, the co-founder and COO of Productive. A SaaS management platform backed by the likes of Accel, Norwest, IVP, Okta, and Atlassian. So some good corporate VC in there. Prior to Productiv, Muneeb was a revenue ops leader at LinkedIn and previously held corporate strategy and tech roles at Bain, HP, Oracle, and Equinix. Muneeb, welcome. Thanks for being here.

Munish Gandhi: Thank you so much, Michael, for having me.

Michael Koenig: Let's dive right in. I generally start with that question of, hey, how'd you end up in this role? But I love your tech, and here's why I want to go straight into it right now. I like to say that tech companies are made up of people, processes, and servers. When that macroeconomic climate turns rough, companies tighten their belt, they cut opex. We see this in the form of mass layoffs. But the other place that you can turn to are SaaS costs, which can often be murky and complex. So So without turning this into an infomercial, tell us a little bit about Productiv, why you created it, and then what it does and how our listeners can leverage it.

Munish Gandhi: Absolutely. So in the last 5, 10 years or so, there's been a massive, massive explosion in SaaS applications. Pick any title in America and there are at least 20, probably 50 SaaS companies building for that. When I say pick any title, whether it's you're a developer, you're an FP&A person, product manager, so on and so forth. So there's been massive explosion in SaaS, but you combine that with the, the amount of money that has been available to companies to invest in growth. It's been like we are coming out of a growth at all costs mindset, which translated to very lax governance on which applications you need to purchase to make your people productive, very lax governance on once you buy applications are they actually being implemented the right way? Today we got to a point where IT finance leaders, CEOs, are looking to optimize cost, to minimize risk, and to really build operational excellence across the business. If you're a technology company, your number one cost is people. Most likely your number two cost is software, whether it's infrastructure or SaaS. So we saw that coming, you know, in the last like 5+ years ago when we started the company and really thought that there has to be a different way on how software drives employee productivity. It's not an employee-driven decision. You still need a way to get value from all the software that you're using. Fundamentally, when we started the company, you know, we believe that when teams align, great things happen. And the way you, the way you bring teams together is through the power of data. So, so what is Productiv? At the core, we are a SaaS intelligence platform for the modern enterprise. You may ask me, what is that? Typically, through a SaaS management platform, you get visibility into all applications being used across the enterprise, whether it's purchased by IT, functional leads, teams, individuals. We at Productiv provides insights recommendations across these specific business initiatives. If you want to govern your SaaS portfolio, you work with us. You want to rationalize SaaS spend, you work with us. And if you really want to build a process around streamlining SaaS procurement, you work with us so that software is purchased deliberately, where everybody is aware of what you are buying, so you can connect the dots between software and it actually leads to the goal you have, which is driving productivity.

Michael Koenig: If we talk about the SaaS savings, which you just said are oftentimes the, the second largest cost center there. There can be huge savings. I mean, let's put some numbers behind this. Gartner, they put out a forecast indicating that the annual SaaS expenditure will grow by more than 19% to $195 billion, and that 25% of that software is underutilized or overdeployed. At a previous company years ago, I found and removed 40 seats on Asana that were completely unused. I'm guessing you all have some insights, and you spoke about one of the causes just being money was flowing much easier. What else is happening here? Why is there such underutilization? Like, what have you all seen through the product you built?

Munish Gandhi: Absolutely. So I think about underutilization in two buckets. One is you have too much of an application And one is, the other one is you have too many applications. So let's look at what, how we got here. Like, there are very clear incentives that SaaS companies have. If you buy more volume, you get lower unit costs. And when you buy software, there's a lot of euphoria. So you tend to think that your entire organization is going to actually use Asana, back to the example that you had. That doesn't happen, right? So your actual utilization versus what you purchase tends to be pretty low. A lot of times, a tool like an e-signature tool, you buy it for a lot of people using the e-signature tool, but they don't need the entitlements that are required to create new envelopes, right? They only need to sign. So essentially, people buy software independent of, do— does everybody need the right license for that specific tool? And people buy software where they think everybody in the company can benefit from it. Just because somebody can benefit doesn't mean they'll adopt and will benefit. And you only buy software for people who actually need that. So that is how you can, for any specific application like your CRM tool, you can save 20, 30% cost. And that, that's what we are working closely with very, a lot of customers in terms of identifying those and helping them action those. The second bucket is even more interesting. Remember, like we are now, we are out of COVID but 3, 4 years ago, When COVID happened, people were still hiring a lot of people. When you hire new people, you are hiring behaviors. As in, in my previous company, I used a specific project management tool. I need that tool to be productive. Pick any category. That's it. When you hire people, you hire a lot of new behaviors. And when you have lax governance, you have many tools of the same kind. Many companies we work with have 6 or 7 different project management tools. Product management tools, portfolio management tools, right? At some point when you have too many tools, it actually is bad for productivity. So forget about the financial aspect, like when I have to work with finance, I use a specific project management tool, to work with marketing, a different one, et cetera, et cetera. So the second category, slightly more difficult, is you have too many tools in the same category. Now you need to have, a standard, as in these are the IT-sanctioned tools for any specific category. And that's how we will both drive better productivity and much, much lower cost. So in that itself, you know, companies have shut down tools worth hundreds of thousands of dollars just because there's too much duplication.

Michael Koenig: I love SaaS euphoria. It's, it's the honeymoon of after you buy a SaaS product. This, this product can solve all of our problems. All right. All the problems. You talked a lot about governance and the other parts of this are risk and compliance or GRC. And the importance around it is rising. And we're seeing that companies really do need to start paying attention to it earlier on in their lifecycle. How should they think about that at the very base minimum level?

Munish Gandhi: So look, what do you expect from software? Let's start there. Like, why do you purchase software? You make software to streamline processes, to make your people more effective, right? SaaS is a different delivery model, it's a different billing model, but it doesn't change what you'd buy, like why you buy software, right? So, so our most, um, mature customers They have a specific process, they call it a software architecture review board, where every piece of software that is purchased goes through that. Like, you may be head of sales trying to bring in a new piece of sales software, so you bring like, hey, this is why I want to purchase this software, and the architecture board helps to vet. Is it duplicating with somebody? Does it actually meet the compliance posture we have As a company, as in, is it SOC 2? If you're a financial company, there are specific standards there. If you have government businesses, is it FedRAMP compliant, et cetera. So basically, you control for compliance at the point of entry. It cannot be an afterthought. And to do that, you need a very, very clear understanding of what you have, why you are buying a new tool, and does the new tool meet all the criteria that you have? Right, so that's where you bring in compliance much earlier into the process, very data-driven approach. And this is something also typically a CEO would sponsor saying, hey, we are doing the right thing by the company. I'm not against you buying a tool. I wanna make sure that we get the right benefit and we don't break anything of which we may get audited later, et cetera, et cetera, right? So it's bringing that ownership mindset to software purchasing. That to me is governance.

Michael Koenig: And you talked about hiring behaviors, and that's a big just change in operating behavior. You spoke just now about controlling it at the point of entry. One of the things I hate is getting an email from some external account exec saying, "Hey, we noticed that there are 60 people with a 2Cows domain using our software, and would you like to save some money on it? Let's get you on an enterprise plan," or something like that. Oftentimes they're freemium, usually. And at that point, I have no control of the point of entry. I think a lot of companies just experienced this with OpenAI and ChatGPT. That can be quite severe. It can have severe consequences that we saw, as we saw with Samsung when they input all this proprietary code into, into OpenAI. I mean, how do we pull back? At that point, can we? How do we pull back and get control at that point of entry?

Munish Gandhi: So the foundation of like what we do as a business is to provide you visibility independent of how people are using tools. For example, visibility comes from you have officially sanctioned something. So from your financial ERP, somebody's expensing something as a second source, somebody's using their email credentials, company email credentials to log in., and then we also have network integrations, so Cloud Access Security Brokers. So with all of that, we'll paint for you the fact that you have 60 people using either a premium product or a paid product on their credit card. So you're not surprised. And those are the kinds of insights which we will help provide to you so you can optimize and rationalize your portfolio, right? Because whether you're CFO or CEO, the one thing they all hate is that, hey, you need to sign this paperwork, By this date, otherwise 80 people on your company will stop having access. You're like, who are you? Like, which, you know, why do I not hear about you? So I think that's, unless you have good visibility, how can you make decisions?

Michael Koenig: It can be tough. I mean, especially when you have like Google SSO makes it so easy to one, sign up for whatever, but also two, have like multiple different accounts. Where you may actually have a corporate account and for whatever reason that person used Google SSO and it didn't get added. So yeah, it isn't streamlined, right? And it's quite sort of meandering and how do you get there? Let's talk about AI and how it fits into this picture and not necessarily talking about generative AI, but just in general, being able to leverage that in the type of scenario that you're talking about, which is this oversight, this governance. How are you all thinking about this?

Munish Gandhi: Yeah, that's a fantastic question. Everybody's thinking about, uh, AI and end of the day, I believe fundamentally AI solves two problems. First is it is able to better collate all information out there. What that means is we have a lot of information about our customers. But then we can also combine that with a lot of publicly available information around like what, what tools exist out there, uh, how can we contextualize what a company is using, not just based on their own data, but also what exists out there, right? So AI, like today, one use case we have is around fuzzy logic. We can go through your finance ERP, you know, and see, okay, Somebody may actually be expensing a software tool, but marking it as entertainment and meals. So we know that it's like, you know, we can match based on app names, vendor names, et cetera, et cetera. But end of the day, it's a way to collect all the data internal and external. The second big, big part where AI is going to play is now that you have all this information, what do you do about it? I think, and for people who are in our domain, like procurement people, IT people, finance people who are using our tools. How do we become a copilot for them? Hey, this happened. For example, this last 2 weeks, a specific application went from 10 people to 60 people. You really need to pay attention to it because otherwise you're gonna be surprised downstream. Or an employee is going in and buying a new tool, then you, interject that thing, "By the way, we use these 4 other tools which solve the same problem. Why don't you explore those?" So essentially anticipate what the next action is for a specific user, bring it to them, or if they're trying to do something which you think is not the right next action, then interject and provide to them alternatives. The goal is not to shut down things, the goal is to help people make the right decisions.

Michael Koenig: Let's toss in that generative AI piece now. I saw that one of the things that Productive can do is look at, I believe, the actual contracts and the stipulations that we have there. I think AI is really good at sort of that fuzzy, or generative AI, that is, is really good at the fuzzy part of something that's less deterministic than numbers. And more subject to different parts of interpretation, that lends itself really well to structured language. If you're looking at contracts, for instance, and you have renewals coming up, how can you all think about this? How do you all think about leveraging that type of generative AI to streamline the renewal process?

Munish Gandhi: Yeah, I think that's a fantastic question. So today we already help customers understand their contracts better. We have a human plus machine learning way to do that. So we roughly extract about 10 attributes about a contract. When is the renewal date? What assets have you bought in terms of license types? How many of them? Do you have an auto-renewal clause? Yes or no, right? So basically it's a limited set of attributes. That we are able to pick. And the reason why we do it that way is because there's a real cost for us to, you know, read those contracts and validate. Where AI can really benefit is that we can increase from 10 to 50. And not just that, we can much more easily compare contracts once we do that, saying, hey, do you have the right terms relative to customers like you? Which, you know, as humans, like somebody to go through 50 contracts and say, what are the things that really matter? What are the variances in terms of, you know, the SLAs that you're getting, the overage fees? There's so many things that are in the contract and the bigger the contract, the more complex they are. So where we see AI playing a big role is helping our customers procure better. Like these are the terms that you should focus on. And also the new better, as in these are the things that you should be able to push back on or where you should be able to get more favorable terms for the vendor based on the spend you have with the vendor, right? Because that signifies the importance that you provide to the vendor that they should be able to partner better with you on these specific things.

Michael Koenig: I love this. My dream is to not have to negotiate renewals. To not have to negotiate, period, right? Whether it's contract terms, whether it's business terms, doesn't matter. I love the concept of being able to take your actual usage data of number of seats, how that compares to what was laid out in the contract. Oh, we're underutilizing this, we're overutilizing this, and just be able to have something completely crank out and automate that entire process. I mean, that to me is Wow, that's crazy.

Munish Gandhi: Yeah, absolutely. I think also just to build on, uh, what we were talking earlier about from a procurement, um, standpoint, and the way we, we think about, uh, like both AI and just better workflows, the— fundamentally there's an opportunity to automate a lot more of the procurement process overall in companies in better integrate with other systems, really track when you are buying software. Are you saving money? Is a good ROI? So that, that there's a, there's something there for sure which can be much more automated so that somebody like you or the CFO, um, you know, they can rely on a process for procurement. Also, there has to be almost like a workflow to align multiple stakeholders in the renewal process, right? Because if you pick any specific tool, the owner many times is in the business. So for a sales tool, it would be, you know, your head of sales, your head of revenue ops, potentially marketing, and definitely IT from architecture standpoint, security, legal from a contract standpoint. How do you orchestrate so many people working together in our procurement process where they all, a lot of times they have decision rights, they have veto rights, but how do you create a collaborative environment for them to work together and bring the right data and insights? Saying, okay, you are purchasing this tool, we have an overlap, have you assessed that? You are purchasing this tool, this does not meet our compliance posture. Or you are purchasing this tool, this is something that, you know, does not integrate with a specific application. Those are the kinds of questions that today get lost in email. So one of the things that we are leaning in very, very heavily into is that, look, we are big fans of SaaS. I think SaaS fundamentally helps employees be more productive, but there's just so much friction in like, Just because you can buy software doesn't mean you know how to buy software. So our job is to, you know, help you buy the right software with the right process and with the right compliance and financial and risk management, right? And that's why we believe having a workflow— we have a product now called App Procurement Hub— is the right way for you to to, you know, train everybody involved in the software buying process and help them follow our process.

Michael Koenig: Okay, so I want to just pull this back. Also, it's, it's kind of funny, right? This is a SaaS to manage your SaaS. That's not lost on me.

Munish Gandhi: No, no, no.

Michael Koenig: But listen, I haven't gone into anyone's product this extensively, nor have I ever opened the show by saying, all right, we're going to talk about your path and how you ended up in the COO seat and what you actually do. We'll get there, but first let's dive into the meat and potatoes here. Reason being why I wanted to do this is the number of conversations that I have amongst my peers and other COOs and operations folks is just, how do you manage this? I got this Excel sheet, it's got 170 SaaS on it. I've got 35 columns that has all of the different terms that I'm tracking. And, you know, hopefully we don't miss a renewal or something like this. And then add on that access controls, right? Offboarding someone and leaving that access for them is a huge vulnerability from a compliance and, and an InfoSec perspective. So Productiv, I was super keen to have you on to actually dive into this because it's, it is top of mind for us, especially cutting out those 40 unused seats from Asana because that That stuff's expensive, and there's good savings that comes from it. Okay, well, fantastic. Okay, now let's get out of our SaaS euphoria, which I love, by the way. That's like part of my vernacular at this point. Let's back into, uh, Munish. Munish, how did you end up in the COO role?

Munish Gandhi: Yeah, so I, I call myself the accidental, uh, founder. Like, I had, um, a burning ambition Um, it is a business school essay, like, why do I want to go to business school? I want to start a company. It took me only, I guess, what, 10 years or so after that to get prepared to start a company. Um, but really the founding story was I wanted to work with very, very smart people. So I have two amazing co-founders. Jody, who's our CEO, very strong product mind, very visionary. Ashish was my CTO who has built large engineering teams at many companies. And I was everything else guy, like how do we start building our business in terms of, you know, early days, customer success, sales, marketing, WhatsApp message, how do we pay people, so setting up payroll and getting our first legal contracts out, um, what does it mean to start building up HR team. So basically when we started the company, we had, okay, Let's make sure we have the right investors and we can fund the company and we have the right product vision. Let's make sure that we can actually build it, have a strong engineering team, and let's make sure that we can operate well as a company. So that's how we came together. And the CEO was like that catch-all thing spanning both operations and go-to-market that I started. Over time, of course, we have hired a lot of executives now who own each of those functions, but it is all about how do we stay nimble, stay true true to our core vision and values, which is, you know, how I, I became the CEO. And by the way, I think you and I spoke about this a little bit earlier, right? Uh, CEOs come in different flavors. Like, there is one which is very much all back office, second which is all go-to-market, third which is more like a chief of staff for the CEO and special projects. Uh, because initially there was no go-to-market, I started more on the operations side. Setting the foundation for the company. But then more and more the last few years have spent most of my time on the go-to-market side.

Michael Koenig: It's an interesting seat that you're filling for your product specifically, and it almost seems tailor-made for you. The interesting thing, and I want to just clarify for our listeners, Manish, you did not just graduate business school and then hop into founding a company. Okay, this is very different here because you know, MBAs all the time. No offense to our MBA listeners. I do not have one, but it's very, hey, I'm going to business school, I'm going to start a company, right? No, you had a lot of stops along the way at some very major companies doing very major roles. The last one before Productiv was RevOps at LinkedIn. So this is like a lot of deep experience. Generally, when you're selling software, like the saying is, the easiest software to sell goes towards sales and marketing, right? Those dollars really fly freely. Now, yours is not aimed at sales and marketing companies. As someone with a commercial background like you, how did you go about that? Because it's much more difficult sell when times turn tough. Software that doesn't go towards top line gets deprioritized.

Munish Gandhi: Yeah. So, so where was that, um, at LinkedIn, right? Um, maybe I'll give you a window because that's how I navigated to Productiv. So I was part of a small team and we are trying to make LinkedIn for sales. At some point, Sales Navigator product used to be called LinkedIn for Sales. Today, which is a B2C offering. And then our charter was to make it a standard B2B product. Any modern sales team should use Sales Navigator. The tactics which were there were all about, hey, maybe we can have an individual try it, let's have a team try it, and at some point we'll earn the right to have enterprise conversation with the CRO. The reason I bring it is that like I saw firsthand, like typically the different paths that enterprise companies are trying to build a big business, but I also saw so much friction that was there on the buyer side. Where nobody wants to negotiate with vendors. Nobody wants to be told that you have 100 people using a specific tool in your company. So that was sort of my point, that, that this problem around biases is, um, very prevalent when you talk about, uh, vendors. At the same time, the productivity impact was very real, as in when you use some of these tools, you actually get people more effective, productive at their jobs, right? So that is one point of view. And Jody, uh, you know, who's our CEO, he said basically getting everyone the right tools to do their job, it's a data problem. Like, you have to think through longer term and on what is the attribution that comes. And then you use these specific tools in these specific way, you actually get to be more productive. And that's why we call the company Productive. right? And then, you know, we also thought about end of the day, there should be much less friction in buying software, whether it manifests through a marketplace or in some other shape or form, right? So when we started the company, the immediate problem was I just need better visibility and I need to streamline procurement. So we are on to the first act. But then the, the bigger charter that we have as a company continues to grow and mature is how do we start connecting those dots and start helping no matter what job function you are in with ways to help you be more productive in your job. These are the kinds of interactions you should have from a collaboration standpoint, from specific systems of work standpoint, so that you're effective and productive in your job. So, uh, when you're building a company, you need to figure out what is the initial entry point. Otherwise, there's no company. This is— you only get to, uh, raise enough money for your first act, right? So I think we thought this is the most compelling problem that we can solve today around lack of governance around SaaS, around lack of standardized way to procure SaaS. So that's the first act we are on, but the goal is to build something much bigger which will have a much larger impact for our customers.

Michael Koenig: Going back to the corporate experience that you have, a lot of things that work at the corporate level don't quite work at the startup level. A lot of things that work at the startup level don't quite work at the corporate level. What are some of the practices that you took from your time, let's just say at LinkedIn, or whether it was, you know, any of the other companies that you were like, this is something that I'm going to definitely bring with me and I'll adapt it if I need to.

Munish Gandhi: So I think there are a couple of things that I really took away from LinkedIn. Number one was, and we codified it in our own words, is plan to win big. Unless you know where you are going, you will not get there, right? Doesn't matter, like at some point there were three of us and we would say, okay, what are we building? But we were very clear on what are we targeting and, you know, being always brutally honest on things which are going right, or things which are not going right. So I think we even had that amazing culture, um, where there was intellectual honesty in both goal setting and then where are we on attaining those goals. So that's a core skill that I took away. Any point of time— and this is for fellow CEOs— should have a very clear narrative of the business. These are things that I'm excited about, things which are going well. These are things that are not going well. That we are actively working on. These are things that are not going well and I don't care because you know you can't fix all the fires. So I think that, that specific narrative, I think that's a core skill set that really I solidified at LinkedIn. The second is equally important is relationships matter. Like you have to build relationships. You have to— the trust is earned whether you're talking to customers, whether you're talking to your own employees, whether you're trying to partners, whether you're talking to investors, building relationships is very, very important because end of the day you need metrics to run a business, but you build a business with, with people. So, uh, at scale, Ignite did a phenomenal job of helping foster those relationships internally, and that's where the culture was, was born. So I think that's again something that I always remember. Everybody, every conversation I go into, I go in with extreme empathy, as in like, what do they— what does somebody expect to hear from me? How I can help them? Versus, these are the 5 slides I'm going to talk to you about, this is my message, you got to sit there and listen and be wow. No, I mean, that's just wrong. Relationships come from empathy, and I think that's again something that, you know, I learned. And every day, like I think about how can I make an impact to people.

Michael Koenig: There's that saying, uh, business would be easy if it weren't for people. How did LinkedIn go about fostering those relationships?

Munish Gandhi: I think it was, uh, different ways. Like in team settings, like, would always open warmly around, you know, how are things, like, just, just start there. In individual settings, again, try to build that that common connection, which is different for different people. So it was very like inorganic in some ways. Like even like Jeff, who used to be the CEO back then, like there was a new hire welcome and you get to say something at a company all hands and be completely vulnerable and sometimes silly. But I think those are the ways that at a very top-down level, like every leader that I worked with, spoke with, they would always ask me like, what do you think? And like, you know, how can I help? How should we engage? Right? So it comes from a place of I want to build a relationship with you versus I want to hold you accountable for XY

Michael Koenig: Sometimes tough to do, right? Sometimes very tough to look at the intent behind the words. Especially when a lot of it is not vocalized, right? When we're reading on Slack or reading a text message or an email, it's easy to come across terse. It's easy to lose that meaning. Yeah, for sure. We definitely need training on when to say and where to say it. So, all right. We, this has been a bit meandering, but I love this conversation. Let's hop into, to the last and final question because I am mindful of your time. And that is, as a COO, we've all had those experiences where something just totally nuts comes across our desk and we're just like, I really never thought I'd see that. Is there one that you can share with us?

Munish Gandhi: I think I can share, and, and quite a few entrepreneurs faced that a couple of months ago. So you know, I had a full day planned and then suddenly one of my very good friends who happens to be a banker called me and said, do you guys bank with SVB? I think you can say that. And I said yes. And then he said, telling you as a friend, drop everything and pay attention and make a decision. I won't say more. Like, I guess like it's your decision. But he said it's something very real. So literally what transpired is I pulled together our head of finance, our CEO, and said, look, this is important. Like, I know we all have meetings, but we need to game plan. We need to be very, very action-oriented. It doesn't, again, being action-oriented doesn't mean that we need to act. It means that we need to have a very clear opinion on how we are going to tackle this situation. So it was a frenzy of an hour, many, many calls. Conversations as to what's happening. You know, we talked to a bunch of other founders, we talked to a bunch of investors. We're just trying to collect data. There were positives and negatives of acting, as in we had some very real commitments that we made on maintaining some balances. So it's a non-trivial decision. But at the same time, people like, you know, we only bank with one bank for the most part, and we have a payroll to meet, and like We are not like a big, big company. So after an hour or so, you know, we made a very clear decision saying information is imperfect, but the benefit of waiting is just not there. Like, we need to act now and we will deal with repercussions. Like, I would much rather say, okay, all our Cash is secure. Yes, we broke a covenant. Good problem to have and hard to resolve versus, you know, our money is stuck and we can't make payroll. Very bad problem to have. So, and it was a crucible moment. Now I think I look back and it feels easy, but that is how we made a decision, like an hour in saying, we are going to act and we will face the consequences later on what happens. So Yeah, that was not— it was a memorable day, but not in a good way.

Michael Koenig: It was a memorable weekend. I mean, that was crazy. I remember having those conversations. I mean, you got to buy your friend a really nice bottle of scotch or something because that's incredible risk management. That's also one of the things, and I didn't know that y'all had, uh, had your cash in SVB, otherwise I would have, I would have brought this up much sooner. Um, but it's also part of bringing in risk management practices earlier on. We talked about governance, risk, and compliance, but, you know, gosh, I was part of startups and we never thought about risk management, right? But when you have a risk management practice, or at least some advisors who are saying, hey, look, you know, here are your capital markets risks, here are your other financial risks, and you got to make sure that you have your legal and people operations practices and all these different things. I think there's also an opportunity to bring that more to smaller companies, though probably not as a SaaS. Well, Munish, thanks so much.

Munish Gandhi: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think the last thing I'd say on that is that, look, this was like a real crisis, and then in times of crisis, communication is so important, right? So it's not just that we acted, but then it's equally important that, you know, we communicated back to, you know, our investors to some extent, our customers. Like, we had to quickly switch accounts because we had receivables coming. We communicated very quickly, actively to all our employees because we had quite questions come, starting to come up on Slack, as I say, hey, how are we handling this, right? So being decisive is very, very important because it's a crisis. You will not have perfect information, uh, never have. So as long as you can, one, make a decision, two, clearly explain the rationale and the impact on all parties, I think that's what matters a lot more. Because the world we live in, we'll never have perfect information. I mean, that's what leadership is all about.